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To prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

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Dr. Philip Gleason
    Troop Committee Chair
Mr. Tom Kube
    Scoutmaster 

Updated

February 13, 2012
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From Humble Beginnings

Bill Comings, a former Troop 649 Scoutmaster, recaps the beginning of Troop 649.

The Early Years - The Troop's History
"I thought that you might appreciate some of the history of the troop - some of the experiences that we went through in the early years and how some of our traditions came about.

Founding: We started Troop 649 with 18 Scouts (11 of them stayed in Scouts to earn Eagle rank although not all of them stayed with our troop.) We were all from Pack 648 of Laguna School. There were three dens of Webelos II at the school as our boys were graduating. As part of the Webelos II experience, we visited other Troops – sometimes with all three dens – another time, a Troop asked only one of our dens to join them on a camping trip. Needless to say the two left out dens had their feelings hurt. This is sort of the foundation for our annual Webeloree. We try to include all Packs and all Webelos II dens. In the end our parents had a good strong friendship and felt that we would like to try to keep our boys together as they entered Boy Scouts. Our challenge was to find a troop that would welcome 18 boys all eleven years old. This was not an easy task, some of the troops told us that the only way that all of the boys could stay together was if there was a lot of parental involvement. (We didn’t have a lot of parents that wanted to be very involved. One of our dens had floating parents – a different parent had each month of the
year. Another den of boys one year older than ours had disbanded since there was no parent who wanted to be responsible.) Other troops told us that it would be difficult and that they usually only would let a certain number into the troop.

Marty Muir had been the Committee Chairman for the Pack. He and I usually attended the Roundtable meetings. After one of the meetings in either February or March, we talked seriously about the work involved in starting a troop. He is an Eagle Scout, grew
up in Arizona, and said that if I were game, he would help. So we decided to go for it. We had been told that there were a lot of Laguna parents with older boys who were not happy with their present troops who would probably leave where they were to join us. They did not. So we were stuck with 18 kids and no older boy leadership. Being a Cubmaster is a lot different than being a Scoutmaster without older boys to take on leadership roles in a meaningful way.

Charter Organization
Finding a place to serve as a charter organization was an interesting challenge. At the time, all of the boys were from Laguna School, but this was the year that the sixth grade left grade school and went to middle school. We were uncertain about having the charter with a PTO or a school. We investigated Scottsdale Ranch Homeowner’s Association, St. Anthony’s on the Desert Episcopal Church, and Congregational Church of the Valley. We also talked about the possibility of finding a service organization to sponsor the troop, but none of the parents belonged to one. In the end it came down to the church that seemed to have the most room and a parent with the most pull with the church’s governing board.

Dan Taylor was the first Charter Organizational Representative. He had one son that was part of the charter group of boys. He was also their president of the session or lived next door to the president of the session. So we chartered there. The early years were a little rocky with the church. The boys were not always respectful of the church property and we had our share of problems like holes in the walls and messy carpets after the meetings. (I think this was mainly due to the fact that all of the boys were the same age and no older Scouts were there to set the example.) Fortunately, the boys fixed the holes in the walls, the carpets were vacuumed (usually by the Scoutmaster), and we started doing some service projects for the church.

When the church looked at expansion, I think that there was serious consideration about whether they wanted the troop. Dan Taylor and his family had moved to Seattle, there were few if any boys in the troop whose parents belonged to the church, and I’m not certain that the church felt there was any benefit for them to sponsor the troop. For about six months the troop met at the Scottsdale Ranch Community Center while the parking lot and major construction was being done on the church. About this time Dick Lambert became interested in the troop. He had a son about the right age for the troop, and was a member of the church. Additionally, now we have had several scouts make their Eagle projects with the church in mind. I feel it is important to keep service to the charter organization a priority as it really is tough to find a place that we can call home.

Activities - the first year
One of the first things we did as a troop was attend the 75 anniversary camporee at the National Guard Reserve on McDowell and 52nd Street. It was held in April (1996). The Council sponsors one of these every 5 years, I’m not sure when the next one is. This is a great event. As our first outing, we had the opportunity to watch a lot of other troops in action. We found things that we thought would be good and couldn’t wait until we were able to implement them like patrol method of camping, and boy leadership. We also saw that a number of the troops had matching t-shirts. We thought that would be a good idea.

The troop sponsored a contest to design the troop t-shirt. Any boy could enter their drawing and color scheme. The boys would then vote on the one that they felt was the best one. We did give them some direction – that they should think about something that they would be proud to wear and that it should relate to scouting somehow. There were about four entries. And after a couple of run offs between shirts the troop voted on the design that we have today. Chris Comings was the artist. He designed it from clip art and liked blue. He had a full color scheme of what the shirt should look like.

As a troop we determined that we should have an outing a month. We had planned a camping trip for May, but the forests were closed due to high fire danger so we went to the rock gym for our second outing.

The first trip to summer camp was the first week of July at Camp Geronimo. The forests were still under fire restrictions and for about the first half of the week there were no campfires. The second day of camp, the monsoons hit hard and we had lots of lightning, thunder and rain every night for the rest of the camp. Even had some rain during the day. We had about 11 scouts that went that first week. Wednesday of the week the fire restrictions for the forest were lifted and we were able to have campfires. At this time the ashes tradition started. With all of the rain that we had, it was difficult to get a fire started, but we finally did and the ashes from that first fire are represented in the ceremonial ashes we still keep.

We had site 14 the first year. The boys looked all over the camp and decided that they liked the west side of Geronimo the best and liked site 15 because it had a rope swing. (illegal as it might be.) A lot of other traditions started that first year. We were
determined to do as much as possible as a troop. To attempt to earn Big G gold – we couldn’t because we hadn’t been there before. (A troop needs to have attended Geronimo before in order to qualify.) But, the leaders required the boys to do everything else. The polar bear swim, the hike out of camp (in the rain toward the rim along Weber Creek), the hike to Balancing Rock, the tenderfoot run and the “I did it all.” We tried not to put too much emphasis on earning merit badges, but on having a good time and I think that this is still important. Each boy was only able to work on three badges and as first year scouts, I required that each of them do First Aid. (I still think that is a good badge to earn at first.) We also started the tradition of giving nicknames.

The nicknames were supposed to be based on some distinctive trait that the Scout had exhibited during the week. The names were awarded during the Thursday campfire – the last one with just the troop present, since the Friday campfire is for the whole troop. Some of the scouts still are proud of their first year nicknames. (Like Pig Pen?)

We learned a couple of things that first year:
  • Do not let the boys bring food – one kid brought enough junk food to feed the
  • entire troop for the week and would not share
  • Plan for one or two meals away from the mess hall
  • Make sure there is plenty to keep the boys busy
  • It works best if there can be at least one trained dad in camp the full week4
  • Kids get homesick and need mail from home – that’s why I encourage parents to
  • write early and often
  • Another cure for homesickness is to keep them busy
  • Plan for skits early
  • The boys may not shower – this makes the polar bear swim all that much more
  • important because you know they are getting wet all over
  • The OA tap out is a meaningful ceremony even if you can’t be picked yet. (later
  • years when our troop members could be picked there some tears and hard feelings
  • as it is often a popularity contest and does not really considering the meaning of
  • what is involved in being an honor scout.)
  • Wearing the full class A uniform as defined by the Boy Scout handbook is
  • important – especially to earning Big G gold.
  • Wearing blue Class B t-shirts will make you be called the Smurfs (that’s okay
  • too)
  • Being nearly the last site in the camp has benefits and some disadvantages
    • Benefits are that you don’t have to worry about other people walking through your site
    • It is quieter
    • You will walk a lot and get in shape and tired out
    • Disadvantages are that it is so far from everything and you have to walk far and will get tired out.
We discussed the week for camp a lot and finally decided that we would like to have the troop’s week earlier in the year. It would be cooler. It wouldn’t break up the summer as much. And, there would be less a chance of getting rained on. We felt that there was probably no ideal time.

As with most Scout camps, once you have a week, you have first right of refusal for that week the next year. And changing the week is not always easy. For example in order to change the week at Geronimo, someone (it was me) had to go to Scout headquarters the first Monday of October to stand in line to find out what else was available. It was first come first served. I was there at 6 a.m. that day, but did get one of our first choices and we have kept the site and week ever since.

The first year
The meetings the first year were tough to manage. We set the second and fourth Monday nights as the time that we would meet. We held elections for the various positions of leadership. These were mostly determined again by popularity and not always were boys with good leadership skills chosen. We decided then that as leadership were required for advancement that the adult leaders would choose who would be selected for the leadership positions based on the skills and requirements of the boy and rank. 

Since all of the boys were at the same place in scouting, it was easy to work on merit badges or rank. That is mostly what we did. For example we went to REI for one meeting to learn about sleeping bags. Another time we went to the City Council meeting 5 for rank advancement. Another outing was to the State Capitol for one of the Citizenship merit badges. At this age we did not have the scouts responsible for the meetings it was up to the parents – mostly Marty and me.

We tried to go camping once a month and did a pretty good job of either camping or going on a hike. In December, again for a rank – map and compass requirement – we hiked across the reservation from the Muir’s house to McDonalds on Indian Bend. This later turned into the bike ride.

In January, we attempted our first backpacking trip to a place near Four Peaks, along a road, about a mile and a half, with a dad or two driving in case someone were not able to carry the pack. It was an interesting experience as not too far from where the scouts camped, a group of other campers who had not walked in decided to party and have a huge bonfire. Most of the boys felt encouraged by the success of the backpacking and as a troop we decided to try to alternate between backpacking and car camping with hikes.

The Troop is advancing or what a difference a year makes
After one year, we could tell that there was a need for the troop and it began to slowly grow. Each year we would invite the Packs in the area to the Webeloree and some of the boys would “Cross over” to our troop. The Scoutmaster is normally invited to attend the cross over ceremonies. At that time it is important to be there to welcome the new boys into the troop. One of the things that I would do is to put our troop’s neckerchief around the new scout. (The pack is to provide the Webelo Scout with the neckerchief of the troop that he is about to join.) As I remove his Webelos neckerchief, I will tie it into a square knot – explaining that this is the Boy Scout Knot – the joining knot.

Somewhere along the way this year, we had discipline problems and started to have attendance problems.

At this time we were having Patrol Leader’s Council meetings on the first Monday of each month. Both problems were presented to the appointed leaders and I believe they came up with some very good ideas.

A progressive discipline system was put in place. It was sort of three, strikes you’re out. The PLC didn’t believe that there should be any fighting. Consequently, any scout caught fighting would be subject to discipline whether or not it was their fault. This took
the adults out of the judgment game. The first incident would be a call to the parent by an adult leader and the scouts involved couldn’t go on the next outing. A second time they would miss two outings and the parents of the boys involved would need to be present when the scouts returned. A third time and the boy was out of the troop.

To encourage participation for all of the events that we did as a troop, the PLC felt there should be some sort of incentive. They felt that this might be a good time for a special trip. This would be something that the whole troop would get to do, but the boys with the 6 best percentage of attendance would get to do something special. We have had three of these types of trip.
  • We went to the Grand Canyon one September. Everyone in the troop got to go on the trip. The 7 boys with the best attendance got to go to the bottom, stay at Phantom Ranch, have steak dinners and get special recognition at the Court of Honor.
  • One year we went to Lake Havasu. The boys with the best attendance and their parental permission got to drive jet skis. Those with lesser attendance only got to ride the jet ski – if their parents approved. We also went to watch stock car racing on this trip.
  • One year we had reservations for Kartchner Caverns. Unfortunately, either I made too many reservations, or the weekend we had reservations for, only a few boys could go so the trip lost its importance. 
  • The boys really wanted to work on a trip to Disneyland. The parents felt that this would not be in the true line of Scouting.
  • It is difficult to find something that is appropriate, but some sort of special fun recognition is important.
The meetings at this time were less rank and merit badge related and more boy led. There is a scouting publication with topics and meeting suggestions. During the PLC meetings, the leaders would select the topic that they wanted to present during their
month in charge. The boys are getting older and it is much easier to be involved. I think that the best of all possible leadership roles happened during the third year. There were boys working on Eagle Scout, and there were a lot of young eager Tenderfeet scouts. The older boys really wanted to do a good job and the younger boys were really impressed by the older boys.

A Typical Year
Things sort of work themselves into a natural progression over several years and fall into sort of a pattern. This is what seems to have happened with the troop.

August
  • Annual planning meeting – normally with the executive committee. Setting up dates for things like the outings and courts of honor
  • Swim party – we’ve had it in my back yard and that’s fun. It works best at a place like Stonegate. For many years the troop supplied the meat (hamburgers and hotdogs) and beverages (soda, water and adult only beverages) (Looking back on things and considering the council’s stand having adult only beverages probably doesn’t fit in with scouting. However, when you consider how the troop started and that all of the parents of all of the boys knew each other and were friends, there were no issues. I would (all of us would have) rather that my son knew how to drink responsibly than see him smoke.)
  • First meeting – school starts early and there could be a meeting the 4th Monday of the month to talk about an early September camping trip.
  • Make reservations for Webeloree with McDowell Mountain Park – there are a couple of group areas that work. The Youth area is probably the best for the scouts.
September
  • PLC meetings start
  • This is a good time to schedule a trip to the Secret Place. (This is a place near Valentine Ridge.) It is called the Secret Place because it had been a favorite place for people with four wheel drive vehicles to go camping until the forest service blocked and tore up the road to the nice meadow area on the stream. It was felt that after it became so inaccessible, no one would know that it existed and was dubbed “The Secret Place.” It is a great first hike of the year – only about 3 miles round trip.
  • Fall Court of honor
  • Eagle Parent Meeting – this is a time to hand over the responsibilities to the parents to make certain that their sons will earn Eagle rank during the next few months. At this time I would usually outline what happens with the Eagle project Eagle packet and let the parents know that they are fully responsible for anything related to the Eagle Court of Honor. Let them know that it usually takes some time, usually monthly planning meetings and they normally pay the costs of the Eagle Court of Honor. Costs might include refreshments, speaker gifts, recognition gifts for the boys (other than what the Scouts provide), and invitations. An issue always is the actual versus the anticipated completion of all of the Eagle Requirements.
  • Eagle hike – a special hike or project that includes all of the boys who are expected to earn their Eagle rank this year. A good bonding experience. Also good photo opportunities.
  • Aravapai is a great hike this month – it is in the water. Call BLM in Safford 520-348-4400. Only 50 people can be in the canyon at a time. They accept reservations 90 days (I think) in advance of when you want to go. This was to have been one of the Eagle hikes
October
  • Thinking about some type of fund raiser – normally left up to the boys their favorites seem to be car washes. We have also had bake sales, rummage sales, and popcorn sales. I think that you need to sign up for the popcorn sales now. You may also want to look at selling Scout-o-rama tickets. Lots of troops make big money this way.
  • If you want to plan to stay overnight in the dorms at Phantom Ranch 23 months from now (in September two years away,) the first day of October is the time to call 303-297-2757. Keep calling it is first come first served. Have alternative dates in mind.
  • Think about a service project
November
  • Scout-o-rama
December
  • Normally the compass hike or bike trip. We’ve gone across the reservation, along the Indian Bend Wash, to McDowell Mountain Park, and to the Union Hills state trust land. This usually takes place the last weekend of the year.
January
  • The first business day for the Supai tribe is when you need to call 520-448-2141 if you want to go to Havasupai and camp any time during the year. Again keep dialing because they make all of the reservations for the year. April and October are the best months for this hike
  • Court of honor
  • Webeloree – invite all packs in area
February
  • Ski trip
March
  • Last couple of years this has been the trial trip for those wanting to go on either the fifty miler or Havasupai
April
  • Eagle Court of Honor
  • Special Day for Special Kids sponsored by the Scottsdale Rotary – great service project for our troop
  • Several packs having cross overs
  • New kids start showing up to meetings and on camping trips – may need to consider having a couple of trips with different skill levels required
  • Traditional time to go to Havasupai
May
  • Parents meetings for boys going to summer camp
  • Fundraising 
  • Preparation for camp and fifty miler
  • We used to have a parents’ appreciation night where the boys had a chance to recognize all of the dads and moms who had helped out during the year. Also a chance to recognize the Scoutmaster and the committee who are so important to the success of the troop.
June
  • Camp Geronimo
July
  • Camp Emerald Bay or other camp – I think it is important to look for two camps that have different things to offer. Geronimo is a great camp. It has things for boys of all ages to do if they would do them, but I think that they get bored. So, it is good to have the alternative camp to visit. One with different merit badges in a different environment than Arizona.
  • Fifty miler.
Meeting notes
Just a few ideas about the meetings.
  • Try to keep them boy led, but “Be Prepared” you never know when the boy leader will not show up or even worse show up with nothing to do for 1.5 hours
  • There should be an opening – flag ceremony – Pledge of Allegiance 
  • The boy lead activity
  • A game
  • Boy announcements
  • Adult announcements. Talk about advancement – trips – service projects –money raising
  • Scoutmaster’s minute. – there are a lot of web sites for ideas – talk about your experiences, what is going on in the world and how it should affect us as scouters or citizens
How to pick outings
This is something that the boys are supposed to be in charge of doing. The Patrol Leaders are to ask their patrols where they would like to go, get some ideas and then present the ideas at the PLC meeting.

An alternative method is for the adult leaders to make some suggestions of places to go, the Patrol Leaders presenting this to the patrols and then returning to work on a consensus. Most of the time, the PLC would be presented by the adult leaders with some
options and they would decide on what they felt would be a good outing. For qualifying hikes, I usually would try to find a hike of equal distance, elevation gained and lost and difficulty as the big hike that we will go on. In retrospect, I’m not sure how much sense this makes as it might scare off scouts who could really go on the special hike (Havasupai), have a good time, and be encouraged to try some more challenging hikes. Perhaps the qualifying hikes should be more moderate with more of an option for escape.

Places to find out hikes:
  • The Arizona Republic has a weekly column on Thursday
  • Roundtable the first Thursday of every month has some great resources about hikes and other Scouting related stuff
  • 100 Classic Hikes in Arizona, by Scott S Warren is a great resource
  • Streamside Trails, Day Hiking Central Arizona’s Lakes, Rivers, & Creeks, by 
  • Steve Krause is another great book
We tried to go to someplace different every month. Some of the boys wanted to go back, but never knew what else they would miss out on if they repeated. This is an incredible state with so many different places to go at all times of the year.

Some highlighted trips
  • Pima Air and Space Museum – We made arrangements to stay at Davis Monthan 
  • Air Force Base
  • Hiking West Fork of Oak Creek – Stayed at Group site in Sedona Campground
  • Wet Beaver Creek in the rain in March
  • Fossil Springs – the only all down hill hike – great swimming holes
  • Pichacco Peak
  • Phantom Ranch - their steaks are the best
  • Havasupai – lunch at the Snow Cap Inn
  • Aravapai – the only rattle snake that I’ve seen on a trail
  • Lake Havasu – it would be good to do more water trips
  • Elison Creek – the best pool diving 
  • Four Peaks – it just looks hard
  • Deer Creek – November is the best time since the apples are ripe
  • Matazal Peak – a reason to rethink the qualifying trips.
  • Peppersauce Caves – you need to be skinny
  • Karchner Caverns
  • Lava River Caves – what is this with caves anyway?
  • Cochise Stronghold – the place I was overtaken by aliens
  • Roger’s Canyon – the Indian ruins are really cool
  • Charlebois Springs – I only heard about this
  • Sunrise – Big Lake – leave Chu at home
  • Sycamore Canyon – the best meteor shower
  • The Chu’s Cabin – the best showers
  • West Clear Creek
  • The Sheep’s Bridge on the Verde River – probably the biggest disaster of a trip 
  • Fish Creek – eat at Tortilla Flat for breakfast and then take Fish Creek Hill - Chris was on probation
  • Pima Maricopa Indian reservation
  • Catalina State Park
  • Horton Springs – our first major hike on a car camping trip
  • Donahue Pass and Thousand Island Lake!!!!!!
Scoutmaster Conference
The Scoutmaster needs to talk to each boy as they advance to each rank. You are not able to fulfill this role for your own son. Yours is the only formal conference for boys earning the rank of Scout. During this interview, I would normally discuss the difference between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts and to let the boy know about some of the fun things that Boy Scouts do. I try to make them feel welcome in the troop and let them know how happy I am that they are part of our troop. They are supposed to know the oath and law and how to tie a square knot for this rank. Usually there is some coaching before, during and after the conference for this rank. This is also a good time to find out a little bit about how serious the boy is about scouting and what his goals are.

For all of the other ranks there is also a Board of Review after you meet with the boy to discuss rank advancement. The Scoutmaster Handbook gives some general guidelines about each different rank and questions that you might want to incorporate with your Scoutmaster conference at each time. Usually I would try to encourage the Scout, let them know how well I thought that they were doing and have them look forward to the next rank. Additionally, there were some pretty specific rank related questions:
  • Tenderfoot – I would ask them about what they thought it meant to be physically fit? 
  • Second class – mentally awake
  • First Class – morally straight as well as have them anticipate their leadership role – whether they felt that they would be a leader and if their rank meant that the boys would follow, or they needed to have some other skills to be a good leader
  • Star – what their leadership role had been like good and bad
  • Life – really have them look forward to Eagle encourage them to keep going
  • Eagle – what their future plans are for school, career, life, and how they see themselves being involved in Scouting. Encourage that they stay with the troop for a little while as we really need their experience and leadership skills. I would also ask them why they felt they deserved to be Eagle. (There were some interesting responses – such as “Well, I’ve done all of the stuff so why not.”)
Coaching boys working on Eagle projects can be a challenge. A lot of boys do not know what to do or where to get ideas. I tried to encourage them to think about something that they were really interested in doing and figure out how that could be a service project. I didn’t think that every Eagle project should be a trail improvement project. Round Table is a good source for information about possible Eagle projects. There are three steps that involve the Scoutmaster in the Eagle project process.
  • First, the scout should discuss his idea with you. A couple of things for you to consider at this time are that the project is for a non-profit organization, that the project is appropriate for the boy and gives him an opportunity to exhibit leadership, planning and organization
  • The second time that you will meet with the Scout will be during the presentation for your signature. At this time, the Scout, dressed in his Class A uniform, should meet with you to present his formal plan. It should follow the council format and be typewritten. The boy should really have thought things through – what will be done – who will do it and how will they do it – as well as what material expense, how long. Etc, etc. etc. After you have signed the project they need to have the Committee Chairman look at it (If you want me to, I would be glad to be available to do this for as long as you want to have me as the Committee Chairman.) Then the Scout takes the project to a council representative for his (or her) signature. You will probably have to find out from council who does that this year as they change every year. 
  • The third time you meet with the Scout will be after the project is completed. A lot of times, I would also make these my Scoutmaster Conference with the Eagle candidate. At this time the boy, again dressed in Class A uniform, will talk about how things went. I would normally ask him about his planning – did it work as expected, his organization – how would he have done anything different, and his leadership. At this time, I might make some suggestions of how he might make things more presentable for the Committee Chairman (the troop’s last signature before the Eagle packet goes to council for “boarding”.)
The packets normally need to be at council one week before Roundtable if the boy expects to have his Eagle Board of Review in a given month. It is at Roundtable that the Council decides how many council representatives that they need. The Eagle Board of
Reviews are normally one week after Roundtable. The boy gets to ask two dads (or moms) to be part of his committee. The Council will appoint the third member. The Council member normally instructs the other members about what is involved with the
Board of Review. Again, it is not to find out if the Scout can tie a bowline, or knows about orienting a map, but to find out about life goals, and encourage the Scout to continue to think about Scout values.

Areas for improvement
There a couple of areas that I believe need work for the troop based on what has been done over the past few years.
  • Tour permits – these are supposed to be filled out a couple of weeks before the troop goes on an outing, sent to council, and then the Council approved permit is supposed to be taken with the leader to the outing. I know that we did not do a very good job of getting this done.
  • A better means of tracking boys claiming to want to go on a trip to the number that actually show up. A lot of times, I would (something else to change – find someone else to do this) purchase food based on how many scouts had told their patrol leader that they would be attending only to find out that one half to one third had cancelled. This happened two significant times last year – Havasupai where the troop lost about $150 in non- refundable trip fees, and Chu’s cabin where we lost about $100 for too much food.
  • It looks like there may be a better succession planning going on now than there was before, but you probably need to think about your retirement, Dick’s retirement and Annemarie’s retirement and make sure that there are qualified, dedicated folks to take over.
  • The Eagle candidates last year. There is a lot of stuff facing these guys – least of which is that they may not think Scouting is cool now. We have relied on the parents to do the cajoling fighting and sometimes bribing to get the sons to complete everything. It would be good to find some way to make this easier on the boys and the parents both by providing more support and guidance from the troop. 
  • Retention – once the guys earn Eagle they are gone. As above, I know that there is a lot of stuff that is pulling these guys all over, but it would be good for the troop to be able to keep these guys around for a while for some events."